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  imprinting, and why we need to show that we've studied the data

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Author Topic:   imprinting, and why we need to show that we've studied the data
rnelson
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posted 02-07-2008 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message

Imprinting is a psychological and learning phenomena, whereby people (animals of all type, actually) are ripe for important learning at certain critical stages. The phenomena was first observed among ducks that imprint their first attachment object as their mother, regardless of whether the first creature is a duck. They will then follow the leader mindlessly.

Imprinting occurs in other ways too. Children do much better in school when they have positive kindergarten or preschool experiences (that's why good kindergarten teachers are worth their weight in gold!).

Professionals too are imprinted with the leadership of their favorite guru, and might reject new information from non-anointed ones who come from outside a certain professional cloister. We then result in differing professional "schools of thought," which is a nice way of saying "ego-maniac turf wars." Some professionals will strongly resist the existential crisis that would result if they had to come to terms with the idea that they have been doing something silly or incorrect for years. They'll simply end their careers, either quickly or slowly, while sticking stubbornly to old ideas that have been replaced by new knowledge.

Researchers too are vulnerable to imprinting, when we seek and answer to a phenomena, and observe something dramatic in a case or two. This is especially true in the early stages of investigation, and when we "need" an answer in order to feel adequate or confident, or to impress others.

The remedy to all this is, of course, to think carefully about what we are doing and to study the data. The remedy is also to show our work and data to others, for review, criticism, and further improvement.

When approached properly, learning itself becomes autocatalytic, in that the rate of learning is further fueled by the increased rate of learning. We then seem to learn more each year than in the previous one. Stubornness, fear, and territorialism are the antithesis of this and prevent the scaffolding and sharing of new knowledge. The result of such resistance is a inevitably a field of isolated factions that is at risk for failing to keep pace with rate of new learning and knowledge in other disciplines.

I was thinking about all this in response to the other thread, and Barry's comment about Bruce White's data about the dramatic cardio reactions of cocaine users.

Here is a recent case of a very persistent cocaine user. It was posted previously in another thread.

Chart1.

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Chart2.

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Chart3.

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I don't see the types of reactions Bruce has described.

The way to demonstrate the issue would be with some form of logistic regression, around a suitably sized confirmed sample, that could reject the null hypothesis that cardio reactions do not differentiate cocaine users from non-users.

It would be most interesting to see more data on this.

The absence of data, and math, would suggest that the described phenomena is nothing more than some imprinted and anecdotally driven conclusion.


.02

r


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------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


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Barry C
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posted 03-06-2008 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
FYI, Bruce might touch on this at APA this year. I think he told me he only sees those funny cardios in about 25%(?) of the long-term coke user cases. He said his point was that seeing that could provide info to the examiner, and any knowledge might help in some way, some how.

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Ted Todd
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posted 03-06-2008 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
FYI

Bruce did present this info last year at AAPP during his Axcition user session. He apparently has been looking at this for a while.

Ted

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Barry C
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posted 03-06-2008 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
Yes, I know. I've been encouraging him to write on what he finds to make it worthwhile. Because most have heard about some of his "stuff" through the rumor mill, I think he's got a bum rap on occasion. I heard he presented it, and he's shared some things with me in confidence in the past. Because he's so secretive, he loses credibility, and the rumors abound.

For example, many knew of this, but thought that he was teaching people how to diagnose coke use. In speaking with him, I don't think he believes the data he has supports that, but rather that some long term users suffer somehow (physiologically) and end up with these odd cardios. That and a quarter used to get you a phone call, but armed with that info you might (if you didn't know already) have a possible interrogation theme. It's essentially a "knowledge is power" thing, maybe.

He's got some interesting ideas on what polygraph can do. I'm a skeptic, but it's good to think outside the box, and maybe Bruce will get us thinking about things in ways we never have....

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stat
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posted 03-06-2008 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stat   Click Here to Email stat     Edit/Delete Message
At the risk of sounding overly cynical, I must say that if one wants to know anomalous or symptomatic cardio events, one need not ask polygraph examiners, but ask any cardiologist on a host of web forums by cardiologists (go figure.) Our instrument tracings offer little in the way of nuanced electrocardio-pulmanary (whew) data, compared to multi-spectrum medical instruments.
2 cents

We shouldn't try to bite off more than we can chew.....but if we do, we need to wear a helmet.LOL
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[This message has been edited by stat (edited 03-06-2008).]

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Barry C
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posted 03-06-2008 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
Why would those folks ask if coke would effect the reactions on a RQ or a CQ? Every doctor I've ever met always asks the same question after I tell them I'm a polygraph examiner: "Do those things really work?"

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stat
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posted 03-06-2008 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stat   Click Here to Email stat     Edit/Delete Message
You misunderstand.

Ask a cardiologist if he has any anecdotal (or better yet, research) evidence of a phenom regarding EKG symptomatics or cardio-earmarks with long-term cocaine users.
Forget polygraph. We're discussing the cardiovascular system, right? I just smell a "Cleve" regarding a polygraph examiner stating specificities regarding certain historic drug users---sans research. Want to research plants? Talk to Botanists. The heart....go to cardiologists. Polygraph has nothing to do with the heart----and the 4-5 days learning about the heart in polygraph school is hardly enough to provide a foundation for epistemic theory. My point is that rather than reinventing the wheel, perhaps there is already data regarding the long term effects of cocaine users' hearts, and how they may appear on a cardiogram.
Cardiologists know a thousand times more about the human heart under an assortment of conditions than any examiner----and so I don't slight them for not knowing much about our little squiggly little graph---a far more primitive representation than the 6-10 channels of cardio from an even analogue model EKG.

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Barry C
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posted 03-06-2008 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
I get ya now. You're right, they may already see such "stuff." I don't know if doctors study short-term responses to psychological stimuli. That's more of the domain of psychophysiologists. Most of the members of the SPR don't have medical degrees. Some do, but most don't.

You raise an interesting point. How much data are we missing that might be helpful with our instrumentation? We don't usually ask about how much of what we see is real and how much is averaged over time. Could we squeeze a few more points out of more sophisticated equipment? (Would we even be looking at points?)

When most of the researchers do their stuff, they don't use the polygraphs we use. They often use more sensitive instrumentation. Read Dr. Lou's dissertation short-version in POLYGRAPH, and you'll scratch you head trying to picture the instrumentation and data he had to play around with.

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stat
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posted 03-06-2008 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stat   Click Here to Email stat     Edit/Delete Message
Really? I gotta read more. I didn't realize researchers were using better instruments than the standard box---like as you mentioned Lou's research. I'm reading the Biography of Ben Franklin right now. I hardly ever touch the sciences if I can avoid them. Shame.
All I know is when my kids were born, they had a small heart monitor for her and the baby---and there were channels galore----data data data. They could monitor just one valve & chamber if they wanted----cool stuff. I couldn't stop watching the graphs and how her heart and the babys' hearts reacted along with the contraction transducers.
I will post a question tommorrow on some cardiologist forums---and I bet there are some papers on the subject----papers that I am mentally ill-equiped (ha) to fully appreciate I am sure.
It just seems that any polygraph data should be connected with the established sciences. I've long ranted about how polygraph theory should be more closely alligned with for example neurolinguistics.


[This message has been edited by stat (edited 03-06-2008).]

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stat
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posted 03-07-2008 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stat   Click Here to Email stat     Edit/Delete Message
I just registered at www.doctorslounge.com and posted a question regarding long term cocaine use effects on the heart---and subsequent garaphic displays of such.
The questions are read by a moderator before being displayed----and my question hasn't been posted yet.
I invite you to register if the cardiologists' answers beg more questions.
I am registered as palerider, and here is a link to the forum;
http://www.doctorslounge.com/forums/ucp.php?mode=activate&u=30740&k=Y5PMSD8C5D


It could be interesting.

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[This message has been edited by stat (edited 03-07-2008).]

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stat
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posted 03-07-2008 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stat   Click Here to Email stat     Edit/Delete Message
....when my post appears, it will either be in "arythmia," or it will be in the equivelant of "off topic" posts.

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Barry C
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posted 03-07-2008 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
Let us know. There's way too much going on over there.

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